Zeitgeist the movie, in my mind, is extremely reductionistic. It does not seem to touch on the esoteric or gnostic aspect of Christianity at all. In fact all it does is sample the elements of the conventionally told tale in order to prove a point which has been expounded anyway for decades in the field of comparative religion - that Jesus Christ's life fits into the archetype of a 'solar god' such as Isis. But it appears to do this in order to somehow discredit the event and the story !
Which to me is reductionist. When you say 'nothing more than' you are reducing a multi-level phenomena to a flat-land belief system, in the case of Zeitgeist, to a kind of materialism (since in this film the myths of the solar gods are reduced to 'nothing more than' stories of the sun and stars).
To me, one of the very powerful aspects of the Christ mythos is that the patterns of the macrocosm, the sun and stars, can be played out in the life of the man Jesus (and, it must be said, any avatar, any human aligning to the celestial realms). "As above, so below" - and again, that these patterns can have their own fractal iteration in the death-rebirth mysteries of the human soul.
Which to me is reductionist. When you say 'nothing more than' you are reducing a multi-level phenomena to a flat-land belief system, in the case of Zeitgeist, to a kind of materialism (since in this film the myths of the solar gods are reduced to 'nothing more than' stories of the sun and stars).
To me, one of the very powerful aspects of the Christ mythos is that the patterns of the macrocosm, the sun and stars, can be played out in the life of the man Jesus (and, it must be said, any avatar, any human aligning to the celestial realms). "As above, so below" - and again, that these patterns can have their own fractal iteration in the death-rebirth mysteries of the human soul.
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Thu, October 4, 2007 - 5:31 AMI think the pen-ultimate God is in fact Ra but then it really doesn't matter what I think or you think does it? I'll respond anyhow because I think Zeitgeist is a good movie that brings up many important points, especially to those who are living under the vision that America is all about "Freedom"...and which it is to some extent internally but externally that's a different story and I think that is why you have the world more or less turning against our tactics as a nation.
We've essentially become Nazi Germany starting wars with people for no legitimate reason whatsoever.
It's not only unAmerican, unConstitutional and unUnited Nations...it's just not human or so I believe.
We can agree to disagree with dictators of other nations just as people disagree with our dictator. The people propping that dictator up are the Christian literal fundamentalists who obviously can't be bombarded with the truth because they're too busy in their two-minute hate that never ends.
Zeitgeist is a stepping stone for some logical thinking to people who never thought for themselves ever before, or so I see it anyhow. -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Thu, October 4, 2007 - 9:18 AM
"We've essentially become Nazi Germany starting wars with people for no legitimate reason whatsoever. "
Yes, but the movie brings Jesus into it and as usual leaves the blame at his door... -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sat, October 6, 2007 - 3:41 PMhi, Daniel --
I actually thought the whole first segment of Zeitgeist was more of a distraction for people viewing the movie -- if certain types of people, ie fundamentalists or power brokers went to see it, they'd come in contact with that part and not think that the rest of the movie is about what its real content is. I regarded the Jesus stuff as 'interesting, but not important' and thought it was more of a decoy than any serious message.
I definitely DIDN'T get the feeling or sentiment that the makers are trying to blame the rest of the story on Jesus.
to me, they felt like separate and unrelated movies, in a way. part one on its own -- and two and three very much the core of the message.
that's how I took it.
Alx
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sun, October 21, 2007 - 7:11 PM> the movie brings Jesus into it and as usual leaves the blame at his door ...
the blame is actually set at the feet of them that proclaim the personality of a Jesus made up and promoted by the Babylon empire and its tentacles among the nations. -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 6:00 AMhow do you know ? You're just restating the objectionable and dodgy ideology of the film... -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 7:43 PM> how do you know ?
several decades of study, analysis and meditation
> You're just restating the objectionable and dodgy ideology of the film.
almost anyone will arrive to similar conclusions after a careful look at his-story
to deny the abuse of religion (in special Xtianity) in the politics of the exploitation the human and mineral resources of the world is to be in denial of the of historical facts -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:59 AM"to deny the abuse of religion (in special Xtianity) in the politics of the exploitation the human and mineral resources of the world is to be in denial of the of historical facts "
Err, so neither the roman empire, maya, greeks or any other ancient civilisation abused human and mineral resources ? It took 'xtianity' to do that ???
And you say you are historically versed ? -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 10:23 AM> you say you are historically versed ?
Relative to you ?
"The history of Christianity is in its most pronounced traits, a history of war, - one single long war against both outer and inner enemies. Wars fought on behalf of or under direct command of the Church, civil wars, offensive wars and wars fought against people with other views and beliefs than the official Church. The annihilation of whole peoples, like the Vandals and the Goths, the Indians in central and south America, and the slaughter of the Slavic peoples in the east, genocide of Jews and Moslems. In the eyes of the church and its historians these peoples were just criminals trapped in the dark night of paganism, and for whom the Church spared no atrocity or means too cruel to secure their conversion. Those who did not convert were killed. If not Christian, your life was not worth much. There are not many among the peoples of the world who have not felt the Christian mission drive on their bodies. The Church’s way of thinking was: if you weren’t Christian, you couldn’t be considered to be human.
For the early Christians war duty was out of the question. Even killing in self-defence was not accepted. During the Jewish uprising against the Romans in 66-70 AD, the early Christian congregation in Jerusalem fled to Pell in Perea to avoid having to fight. During the Jewish Bar Kochba uprising in 131-136 AD, the Christian Jews refused to fight, leading to harsh persecutions from Bar Kochba and his followers (Deschner 1972). This pacifist attitude was however soon to change when Christianity rose to power and became state religion in the Roman Empire in the beginning of the fourth century. "
bandoli.no/warfare.htm
"We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation"
George Bush
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? Come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?"
James 4:1 -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:52 AMYou have this really blunt and overarching definition of christianity. If you are historically versed you will know that there are many many overlaps between the so called pagan and christian world, and that there has been many different manifestations of christianity. Just because psychopaths use the external symbolism as a means to control doesn't mean the core is corrupt, it simply testifies to the power of the numinous mystery within its core, which wicked men have subverted. Wicked men have always done this, it doesn't matter if its pagan, christian, mayan, confucian. Religions are always the cloth of realpolitik, but are irrelevant ultimately to the overarching agenda of the control of material resources. Do you think Rome conquored lands by making friends ? They killed millions, including tens of thousands (perhaps more) of christians.
Realpolitik has no bearing on the experiential core of what people work with in mystical states. In my humble opinon scapegoating the symbol of christ for the ills of humankind is making a deep category error. These are my own views, I'm not just quoting what somebody has said, this is what I have arrived at through my own journey of meditating on the problem of christianity. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 9:41 AM" Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn `a man against his father, a daughter
against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me
is not worthy of me;
anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me
is not worthy of me;
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me
is not worthy of me.
Whoever finds his life will lose it,
and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
Yeshua ? -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 10:35 AMYou are on a gnostic forum. Do you know anything about gnosticism ?
" Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
I completely agree with this. I am less afraid of bodily death than I am to being a vagabond spirit plagued by the crimes of my own conscience.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Yes. Manjushri's sword cuts through duality. 'God is an earthquake' - when there is a superluminous consciousness on earth it makes the negativity in people lash out, as we see through all the martyred saints (including our bodhisatva brothers in tibet under chinese occupation as we have seen recently)
"For I have come to turn `a man against his father, a daughter
against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -"
It is true, that when you make a break from tradiiton it can upset the applecart !
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me
is not worthy of me;
anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me
is not worthy of me;"
Our attatchment to our family bonds can make us selfish and insular. Again I would have to put what is right over what the conventions of my family are.
"and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me
is not worthy of me."
Taking up a cross means to take upon oneself responsibility for the wellbeing of humankind, not just oneself. Being 'worthy of me' means to align with christ-consciousness, its really about being worthy of ones ultimate nature.
"Whoever finds his life will lose it,
and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
A common adage - the wisdom of the twice born, found across shamanic cultures, as well as later vedic traditions, talking about the neccesity to step outside of false self (ahamkara), which is experienced quite seriously as a death.
You see, if you read the words of christ with a) heart and b) understanding that the aramaic has been distorted by poor translations and layers of intentional interference you can begin to approach the kernal of these teachings - in a gnostic sense. Not in the sense of pistis but in terms of gnosis.
You can take the harshest sayings of Jesus and collage them to make it sound very rough indeed, but it is more than balanced by the sayings of Jesus that are full of light and warmth.
Be well... -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 11:09 AM> Do you know anything about gnosticism ?
Maybe not enough, but i reason that being a Gnostic is not the same as being a Christian from a Church that has roots in Rome and Babylon.
I agree with some of the things you wrote (in the last post), but that IS NOT what the Christian Church of Rome and Babylon teaches, afaik.
The Essenes or the Gnostic is not the "target" of the movie, which btw, is made to create shock, bc we are in crucial times. There is lil time for protocols. What we see in the world now, is deep and complicated.
if you imply you are standing in the Rock of Yah within, then we agree
if you say you worship a Blond Jesus in a cross that's gonna come to destroy other faiths of man (like Islam); and do your work of helping to clean this mess created in big part by the ignorance of many nice Church goers Christians that voted for Bush two times; then we dont agree.
> You can take the harshest sayings of Jesus and collage them to make it sound very rough indeed
This is what the Christians the movie refers to have been doing for over 500 years -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 11:37 AM> standing in ..
ermmm, i meant "standing on" ... not an English language expert, that i admit -
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 4:42 AM> "I agree with some of the things you wrote (in the last post), but that IS NOT what the Christian Church of Rome and Babylon teaches, afaik. The Essenes or the Gnostic is not the "target" of the movie, "
Hi Ozai, you are right, the target of the movie is to break down gross dogma-structures. But what I find curious is to say 'Jesus fits exactly into the solar deity archetype' - which I totally agree with, but to say this in order to discount his actual existence is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I find it very concievable that the astrological/astronomical portals and convergences the film describes are 'played out' in the microcosm of the species or planetary consciousness.
"if you say you worship a Blond Jesus in a cross that's gonna come to destroy other faiths of man (like Islam);"
No, I'm not saying this :)
Its sad that the exordial aspect of religion can be used in this way, whilst the inner core, the gnosis, the reality of it is so superluminously tender. Thats what I feel gnosticism can offer, a return to the subtle and nebulous understanding of these old stories. The Nag Hamadi scriptures so radically dismember the conventional Christian narrative.
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Re: Zeitgeist movie - reductionist
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 5:59 PMThank you! I've had this same dispute with several people who deny the historical existence of Jesus. These days, it seems I can't go anywhere without someone ranting about Zeitgeist. Keep up the good fight. Hopefully someday reason will prevail over reductionism.
