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gospel literally means 'good news.'
it seems to me that the original message of Christ and his students, or at least one of the prominent messages, was the good news that human beings could achieve the Christ Consciousness, that is, operate in and through this illusion world as spiritual masters like Jesus, if they knew the proper way to do spiritual work and were willing to do it. "all these works I've done, you will do and greater."
I'm wondering, between all the discussions of this kind of dualism and that kind of monism, this kind of gnosticism and that set of teachings about Jesus, is anyone achieving this state? learning exactly the soul mechanisms that enable a person to embody the Christ energy, the Christ message, the Christ light?
isn't that, ultimately, what we're doing here?
Alx
it seems to me that the original message of Christ and his students, or at least one of the prominent messages, was the good news that human beings could achieve the Christ Consciousness, that is, operate in and through this illusion world as spiritual masters like Jesus, if they knew the proper way to do spiritual work and were willing to do it. "all these works I've done, you will do and greater."
I'm wondering, between all the discussions of this kind of dualism and that kind of monism, this kind of gnosticism and that set of teachings about Jesus, is anyone achieving this state? learning exactly the soul mechanisms that enable a person to embody the Christ energy, the Christ message, the Christ light?
isn't that, ultimately, what we're doing here?
Alx
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Re: good news
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 1:03 AMIf part of what you mean is transcending bondage to this world, and participating more in the spiritual reality that is our real home, then yes we should be doing that, we should be walking on a spiritual path that bears spiritual fruit. Most of my posts on my blog are about walking the path, not about controversy or dogmas, and when I do get to those areas, I try to keep it relevant to the path in my experience, from my own experience, as much as possible.
But if part of what you mean implies that we should be seeking powers in this world, that can be a distraction (as you well know, from Eastern teachings, Sidhi's aren't the goal, can be a great distraction), and I would add, attainment of special powers really doesn't prove anything about what one is teaching, except as pertains to such powers, which are worldly, since they are manifesting power through this world. When spiritual illumination and wisdom has practical advantages or showing possibilities, that can be a good thing or a bad thing, it certainly isn't the same as a spiritual thing.
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Re: good news
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 4:59 PMSt. Paul didn't say much about this kind of thing. He simply said that we are saved because of what Jesus did, not because of what we are to do. Good works arise from the gift of faith. As a person believes, a person does. This is the same as Heraclitus' saying: "A man's character is his fate."
Jesus Christ was the good news, not because he revealed a system of magic or opened a new mystery school, but because he took the full burden of sin on his shoulders, in order to redeem the fallen nature of man.
When people were amazed by the miracles of Jesus, he didn't say anything about the five elements of the universe. He simply said "Your faith has healed you." He acknowledged that healing does not come from external works, but the amount of faith within your breast. Not even Jesus Himself was capable of healing in a place where faith was lacking.
Christ suffers invisibly. You can walk past a crucified man everyday and never know it. Maybe he doesn't even seem spiritual to you. Maybe it's your mother, your father, brother, sister, neice, boss... you really don't know, and that's okay. You should learn to see Jesus in everybody anyway. -
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Re: good news
Fri, July 7, 2006 - 4:44 PMhi, guys,
no, I'm not suggesting that one should be in pursuit of supernatural powers. as you write, Carl, they're not necessarily proof positive that one is enlightened. however -- it's a real question -- WHY did Christ demonstrate so many miracles during his life?
in the Western world we have a few doctored, watered-down gospels courtesy of the manipulators at the Nicene Council, and the Gnostic accounts (many fragmentary) found in the 1940s -- and even the watered-down accounts of his life are full of miraculous experiences that many people today find hard to believe.
moreover, I was asking in the original post here, shouldn't we be involved in understanding, directly, the soul mechanisms that allow us to express the Christ Consciousness through our own forms -- raising the dead is a soul mechanism. it means someone understands what is life, what is death, where is the soul, how to command a soul to reinhabit a lifeless body.
the Gnostic Gospel of Mary Magdalene fragment that remains in the world begins with Christ explaining to her how the soul leaves the body, what obstacles it encounters on the way out of the form. that's a soul mechanism. in India they call it a 'yoga samadhi'.
understanding the soul mechanisms is a crucial part of what Christ was demonstrating, through miracles and healings and his teachings.
Denny -- Christ in the Gnostic Gospels references the Five Elements of creation quite a lot. he didn't only say people should heal through faith. if that were true, all people of faith would be completely healed and healing one another in this world, and common sense tells me this isn't the case.
moreover, we don't really know what he actually taught his students because the conventional gospels were manipulated and there are only a few Gnostic gospels that survived. do you really think that the sum total of what Jesus shared with his students was recorded in those two sources? (and do you really think that he would have shared only stuff that would be written down? what about initiations, secret formulas, etc? they're ALSO referenced in the Gnostic Gospels but not spelled out.)
Jesus could of course heal in a place where faith was lacking. in the New Testament, there's an account of a village where he cast out some demons and immediately the people of the village got freaked out and threw him out. they were convinced that Jesus was a black magician.
(obviously they were lacking in faith. still, he healed the village of those demons.)
and yes, of course, every human being IS the divine. of course we see that, every time we're giving food to homeless people, or visiting people in a psychiatric nursing home I frequent. it's not about whether they 'seem spiritual'.
however -- I would pose this -- if we're all divine, why don't we act like it?
there are a lot of disconnects, I believe, between professions of doctrine and ideas about having faith, and the actual mechanisms of divine truth in the world.
just my view.
Alx
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Unsu...
Re: good news
Sat, July 8, 2006 - 7:37 AMYes, nicely done, Alx. As reviewing this thread, brings to mind a number of scriptures. Here are some examples:
"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts...." 1 Corinthians 14:1
"Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." 1 Corinthians 14:12-14
These statements, and Jesus' parables in Matthew 24 and 25, suggest to me that gifts are not only given by grace, but are to be desired and developed with greater understanding. In other words, it would seem there is no prohibition on seeking and learning more about the "hows" of miracle-working, though there may well be some essential prerequisites.
Faith is necessary because it is the key that unlocks the door of all human potentials, but the Gnostic view is that faith, when followed to its fruition, leads to knowledge. Thus faith itself is not sufficient to fully answer the God's call, and in fact Paul makes it very clear that it is an error to hold faith as the supreme virtue.
"Faith without works is dead, but by works is Faith made perfect."
"And now abide Faith, Hope, and Love, these three, but the greatest of these is Love."
Perhaps this last quote points to the proper mindset in which one pursues such knowledge and skill. It is right to warn aspirants about seeking special knowledge and powers. There is great temptation and potential for spiritual folly. A proper foundation must first be put in place, and that is why the virtues of faith, hope and especially love are emphasized.
This view parallels the teaching of Patanjali, who considered self-restraint and the cultivation of virtues to be the first steps on the Eightfold Path of Yoga (or Uniting).
Peace,
Griffin -
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Re: good news
Sat, July 8, 2006 - 10:54 AMhi, Griffin --
I really like this one in this context:
"Faith without works is dead, but by works is Faith made perfect."
because it finally dawned on me that perhaps Jesus was referencing 'works' of many levels, not only material-level service like being nice to people, feeding the hungry, administering to the sick, etc.
today I'm getting that by works he also meant the soul healings, the selfless help that a divine soul can offer to other souls, regardless of the surface-world circumstances. and maybe... he also meant demonstrating the miracles.
I also really love the part about faith leading to knowledge. it means, faith has a purpose, it's a rich road leading somewhere tangible and important -- Knowledge. (knowledge of what? perhaps, again, works?)
thanks for posting those excerpts, you've given me quite a lot to chew on today.
Denny, I have a lot of rebuttals (of course! -- grinning --) but not enough time to respond today.
Alx
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Re: good news
Sat, July 8, 2006 - 9:45 AM<< in the Western world we have a few doctored, watered-down gospels courtesy of the manipulators at the Nicene Council >>
Why assume manipulation rather than reformation? One paints the person as a power-hungry tyrant, the other a compassionate older brother.
<< moreover, we don't really know what he actually taught his students because the conventional gospels were manipulated and there are only a few Gnostic gospels that survived. >>
Gnostic gospels are still being scrutinized by historians. We can (or at least should) assume very little about their authenticity at this point.
<< do you really think that the sum total of what Jesus shared with his students was recorded in those two sources? (and do you really think that he would have shared only stuff that would be written down? what about initiations, secret formulas, etc? they're ALSO referenced in the Gnostic Gospels but not spelled out.) >>
When Caiaphas asked Jesus what is doctrine was, Jesus replied, "What I teach is widely known, because I have preached regularly in the synagogues and the Temple. I have been heard by people everywhere, and I teach nothing in private that I have not said in public." (John 18:20)
<< Christ in the Gnostic Gospels references the Five Elements of creation quite a lot. >>
Gnostic Christ does, Jesus of the Gospel doesn't.
<< he didn't only say people should heal through faith. if that were true, all people of faith would be completely healed and healing one another in this world, and common sense tells me this isn't the case. >>
Maybe we're already healed and common sense just doesn't realize it?
<< Jesus could of course heal in a place where faith was lacking.>>
"And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any mighty miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them." (Mark 6:5) Little faith, little miracles. Big faith, big miracles.
<< however -- I would pose this -- if we're all divine, why don't we act like it? >>
How does one act divine? What is the proper way to behave? That's been the topic of philosophical inquiry for thousands upon thousands of years. Why does this question keep going?
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