Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

topic posted Mon, December 5, 2005 - 11:01 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I'm just a couple chapters into this book ... my first book on Gnosticism ... it places gnosticism at one end of a spectrum and literalist at the other end... it also states that Jesus was a character in a myth... a parallel to the Joshua of the Exodus story ... this is all new to me and I'm not sure what to think ... any thoughts regarding this??
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  • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

    Tue, December 6, 2005 - 9:38 AM
    Rojo, Gnosticism does express its religious symbolism within myths, this is true. However, we do not mean that these stories are not true, but rather that these stories express truths of a different order from those of dogmatic theology. The experience of Ultimate Reality is unexpressable through language, so people often choose a more poetic metaphor in their attempts to do so.

    This does not mean that Jesus did not exist. In fact, given the historical evidence, including the Roman records of his crucifixion, it would be rather silly to make the case that he didn't exist. But, this does not mean that every story recorded in the Bible is literally true, either. Whether or not Jesus walked on water is actually a pretty insignificant point, in my estimation. There are more important issues to be investigated here --- such as, What is the cause of suffering? Can we transcend this? Who is God? What is the nature of Spirit?
  • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

    Tue, December 6, 2005 - 9:48 AM
    I have not read "Jesus and the Lost Goddess", but I highly suggest reading "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels for a good overview of the early history, philosophy and mythology of Gnostic Christianity. (Especially interesting is its interaction with Pauline Christianity). She is a very well-written author with a genuine interest in Gnosticism who relates this story in a very readable and concise manner.
    • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

      Tue, December 6, 2005 - 8:28 PM
      I personally preferred Timothy Freke's other book the Jesus Mysteries. I felt that it explored the gnostic ideas very well, going back to the greek roots in the Dyonisian and other mystery schools. Jesus and the Lost Goddess sort of built on this earlier work a little bit and I think the two together are a nice body of work.
  • !!!

    Mon, January 16, 2006 - 10:23 PM
    WOW!!!!



    That is why i LOVE Tribe. Reading Jesus and the Lost Goddess is what really shifted my perspective into understand Gnosticism. I've read it three times and each time I find new ideas to download. You guys who are reading or have read this are my new friends and yall will recieve and invite from me cause anyone who looks to gnosis is a friend of mine. Wonderful Book!!!~~~~
  • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

    Tue, January 17, 2006 - 3:12 PM
    Another perspective (one which I ascribe to) is that it does not matter whether or not there was a historical Jesus.

    There either was or there was not. Either angle does not, necessarily, invalidate the lessons that must be internalized to achieve gnosis.

    I have found "The Lost Goddess" and "The Jesus Mysteries" to be excellent resources. Although I would not refuse the historicity of Jesus, after reading them I cared less about the particular facts and more about the life-affirming lessons hidden (or not) in the gospels.

    Has anyone had a chance to read "The Laughing Jesus"? I've heard its good, but haven't picked it up yet.

    Care+
    Hush
    • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

      Tue, January 17, 2006 - 8:20 PM
      I got "The Laughing Jesus" for christmas and am reading it now. It is awesome and really makes a strong look at religion in it's fundementalist view and how that is bad for the world. I think it is just as strong as the other two books and I would recommend it strongly.

      I agree with the assessment that after becoming involved in Gnosticism the debate on whether Jesus was or was not an historical person became a lot less important. The other thing I have noticed with myself, is that the more I explore the Gnostic Jesus, the more value I find in the Bible and other Christian writings. I have also read several of the books by Holger Kerstein (spelling?) which explore the buddhist influence on Jesus and his teachings. It's fascinating stuff and has really caused me mind to further illumination through reflection and meditation.

      Fiat Lux,

      Dian
    • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

      Thu, January 19, 2006 - 3:47 PM
      What is meant by achieving gnosis and who is going to do it?

      What knowledge is going to be useful to you?

      How are you going to discern between truth and fantasy when you yourself are that fantasy?

      There is a tendency in human beings to "rush the gold mines."

      There is a calculation of worth and then an investment of energy. Then what?

      Some get rich and fat, others die in collapsed tunnels.

      Historical existence of Jesus is important.

      First of all, what is history? What is continuity? What is time?

      Max Planck discovered long ago that energy is emitted in discrete packets of information (quanta).

      This means there is no 1, 1.2, 1.7, 2, etc., but only 1, 2, 3, 4. No in betweens. It is or it isn't. You do or you do not.

      Is it possible for a person to 50% exist? Can I hand you 0.5 cents?

      No, I can only hand you 1 penny, 1 nickel, 1 dime.

      Can I step in the water 50% of the way?

      No, either I am in the water or I am out of the water.

      Can a baby in the womb exist 50%? When does the baby become a baby? When it is or when it isn't?

      Obviously the answer is WHEN IT IS!

      Our whole entire system of measurement turns out to be rather absurd and self-serving.

      We represent discrete reality with symbols that suggest continuity -- lines, curves, fractions, decimals, etc.

      Why? Because we want to continue!

      We want to know, we want to predict, we want to be in control of our lives.

      We want to have an answer to the question.

      But how to arrive at the answer to the question when we ourselves are the question?

      Do you want to die?

      The coming of Jesus Christ is not an event in time.

      It was a transformation of eternity.

      The merits of Christ were poured out on the entire creation.

      He voluntarily came into the world to accept the punishments of Divine Justice on behalf of those who could not withstand them.

      And what did Jesus ask? That we do the same in return. As you have been given, so shall you give.

      You don't become like the one who buries the coin in the dirt, but double and quadruple what is given to you.

      Otherwise, even what has been given will be taken away.

      If you want to become like Jesus then become like Jesus.

      His head will become your head, and you can wear the mighty crown of thorns.

      Then you can purchase souls and alleviate the Lord's burden with your own voluntary suffering.

      How much Love is there in such an act? Tremendous!

      You are loving the Lord. You are loving your neighbor.

      That is the height of gnosis. There is nothing beyond that.

      With everything else, you are just seeking an experience.

      If you want an experience, you can give up spirituality entirely and still have plenty of those.

      But if you want to know what Love is, you are going to have to suffer.

      Just as the Lord suffers.
      • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

        Tue, January 24, 2006 - 8:27 PM
        a little bit veering away form the books topic but -
        i don't know that i would go along with the statement that

        "He voluntarily came into the world to accept the punishments of Divine Justice on behalf of those who could not withstand them"

        because it seems to me that Love is God,not so much God is Love. (and not just me of course) How can Love be around to damn people to hell and punishment at the end of days? is Love Just?

        we are the ones who invented original sin.

        i think there have been a few incredible people who attained a state of godly Love, godly in it's all excompassing nature, and jesus was one of them, if he was a real person.

        i recently read "the da vinci code". i didn't expect the depth of it when i first picked it up - i was pleasantly surprised to learn the theory of magdalene's relationship with christ and their bloodline still being around.... the theory of church repression of Goddess-worship in our society being due to that..... i thought the ideas in the book must be close to gnosticism in some ways. anyone care to comment?

        ~peace~
        • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

          Tue, January 24, 2006 - 8:39 PM
          Hi Amira. I loved the Devinci Code for many reasons and I have actually read most of the books on the reading list cited inside the novel. I find the holy bloodline theory very plausible for many reasons and have read some great works that do support it. Some of the books out there do vere widely from accepted logic, but they are fun reads nontheless.

          To comment on your question though. The buddhists have citations of Jesus studying buddhism during his 'lost' years and consider him to have attained enlightenment. I personally am not sure whether I think Jesus was an historical person or not at this time, but I can certianly see the evidence for both sides. For some well researched literature on this subject I recommend Barbara Thieren's books Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls and anything by Holger Kerstin, The Original Jesus etc... (I can't remember all the titles, but he has 3 books at least that I have read) The idea of Jesus being married to Mary Magdalend is very likely since as a rabbi Jesus would have been compelled to marry according to Jewish law. Also in the gnostic gospels and other suppressed writings from the early christian movement Mary is often mentioned as being the favorite disciple and the leader of the group after Jesus left/died/resurrected. Another great view of this are the books by Morton Smith Jesus the Magician and the Secret Gospel of Mark. Smith is a learned man that cites great source material to support his ideas which include Jesus as a Magus/Magician and Mary as his Priestess. Do I believe that there is a holy bloodline that has been suppressed by the Church? I don't know. Most of the books that speculate on that theory have quite a few leaps of faith with very little actual fact to support them. Yes, it is great fun, I think it is possible, but provable? I don't know. I think it is more important to look at the Gnostic teachings of Jesus which are evident even in the mutilated Bible that we have at this time. As he said, "he who has eyes to see or ears to hear"

          He shall know the kingdom of God,

          Fiat Lux,

          Dian
        • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

          Wed, January 25, 2006 - 7:38 PM
          Love is God, God is Love... same thing, no?

          "is Love Just?"

          Justice is interested in equality. Obviously, where there is inequality, justice is going to be upset.

          When we make a judgement against another, subjective as it may be, we are condemning ourselves for this reason.

          We say "I am something" and with that we make ourselves more important than the rest.

          We say "I am right" and then the others are wrong.

          Then where is equality? It is disturbed. The scale is tipped.

          Justice lives and breathes for Balance. It is going to restore balance. That is simply what it does.

          There is no room for opinion there. No room for argument. It knows what is right and it is going to pay an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

          If Justice had some personal flavor, it would be biased, and that is clearly not an ideal situation.

          Justice is impersonal. It does not care who is going to take the hit. It only knows that it has to be distributed.

          See the mystery? It is impersonal! Therefore, we are free to accept the burdens of others!

          It does not care! It will give them to us if we ask for them.

          And what is this? A Sacrifice of Love is the conduit of Divine Mercy.

          One suffers so that the other doesn't have to.

          Yet when it is seen that this is what Love is... how much does one want to suffer!

          The mother gives up her own life in order to produce many more.

          Although creatures typically avoid pain, she leaps into it, because the new life brings her joy.

          Without Justice, no Mercy, without Mercy, no Love.

          There is no Condemnation in Love, but also no Love in Condemnation.

          Most of us are just buying and selling, buying and selling.

          Few are willing to pay the ransom for the captives.

          Yet this is what we are called to. A wonderful calling!
          • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

            Wed, January 25, 2006 - 8:38 PM
            It is interesting how different your approach is from that of the four noble truths, which teach how to end suffering. Or perhaps this is only a surface difference? Perhaps the two approaches are not very different at all?
            • Re: Jesus and the Lost Goddess by Freke & Gandy

              Thu, January 26, 2006 - 1:33 PM
              You can use a knife to prepare food or you can use it to murder somebody.

              I can speak a bunch of fancy words, but that doesn't mean I understand anything of what is being said.

              Why define me in terms that the Buddha gave? Why define yourself in those terms?

              Why compare? In comparison there is differentiation and preference and that is a crime.

              Maybe the Buddha was the biggest crook in the Universe. What do we know about that?

              Is Buddha going to get mad when I call him a crook? If so, he is certainly a crook!

              Furthermore, if I defend the Buddha, I am clearly not defending the Buddha.

              I am merely defending my thought of the Buddha. With that I am actually negating the teaching.

              We have our thoughts and projections. What else?

              How can I defend any thought without also strengthening the illusion of having a self?

              Who can defend except for me? I raise my hands in defense because I am afraid.

              Stranger and stranger. I am afraid of not existing, even though I don't really exist.

              Even though the Universe Itself does not appear to be continuous and permanent, I desire that for myself.

              Am I somehow different or superior to the thing which is defining me?

              I have to perpetually go away. I have to disappear and never return forever and ever.

              It's fair to say that every question deserves an answer, isn't it?

              So why can't I tell you that you deserve to die? Is it somehow different?

              It sounds negative. Why? Because of fear. Because of desire.

              How come there is "something out there to be attained?"

              There is nothing out there but suffering. That is noble truth #1.

              You cannot attain anything. You cannot reach anything. You yourself are the problem.

              If I appear to block your way, you are going to push me over.

              If you don't have anywhere to go, you are going to stop and talk to me for a moment.

              You are going to stop and say, "Ah! Look at the wonder of this moment! And this one! And this one!"

              You are a question mark on a piece of paper.

              There is an eraser over there.

              Are you going to go rub yourself out of existence?

              That is the eight-fold path. The end of the question.

              So why do you want to be enlightened? Why do you desire such a terrible thing?

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