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Dear Friends:
Please do not respond to this post.
Below is the next passage from the Gospel of Thomas. Please take these words into meditation and prayer, and then join us for discussion of them on Wednesday and Thursday next week.
(45) Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good man brings forth good from his storehouse; an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things."
www.webcom.com/gnosis/nag...thlamb.html
Peace,
4W
Please do not respond to this post.
Below is the next passage from the Gospel of Thomas. Please take these words into meditation and prayer, and then join us for discussion of them on Wednesday and Thursday next week.
(45) Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good man brings forth good from his storehouse; an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things."
www.webcom.com/gnosis/nag...thlamb.html
Peace,
4W
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Unsu...
Re: Text for August 24th & 25th
Sun, August 28, 2005 - 6:51 AMAt least on the surface, Jesus seems to be saying that you can judge a person by what they bring forth into the world. As they say in Zen Buddhism, all things (including people) act according to their nature. This is why rigid moral and ethical codes are really nothing more than tools for education, and laws are nothing more than boundaries that society sets on individual actions.
Some people get very upset by the idea that morality is a relative thing that depends upon one's own imperfect judgment and some context in which to make it. Some people would argue that without absolutes that are always right or always wrong, people will just do whatever they want to do and their will be no unity, no peaceful cohesion, no mutual respect in society. What such people fail to realize is that even with a system of so-called absolutes, everyone is still following their own nature anyway.
One thing that actually happens in a system of assumed absolutes is that people become dependent upon having the rules spelled out for them, which leads to an ever expanding spiral of laws and regulations to establish exactly what is fair and right and just in every conceivable situation. In turn, that spiral leads to society respecting less and less of the individual's right and responsibility to make his or her own moral and ethical judgments. This pattern extends into education and socialization, where children are taught less and less about how to make sound moral judgments and courageous ethical decisions, and are instead taught to conform to the norms of society and to always assume that morality is ultimately in the hands of the "authorities".
Peace,
Griffin -
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Unsu...
Re: Text for August 24th & 25th
Sun, August 28, 2005 - 8:48 AMOf course, it should be said that extreme reliance on laws and regulations can also result from an unbalanced adherence to the idea of moral relativity as well as moral absolutism.
Peace,
Griffin
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"evil fruit"
Mon, August 29, 2005 - 1:51 PMImportant to the interpretation of this verse (and likewise to the interpretation of the similar passage in the canonnical gospels) is the understanding of the word "evil" or "good" in the Aramaic tounge. While of course these texts were originally written in Greek (the Nag Hammadi gospel of Thomas being a Coptic translation of the Greek original), the language of Jesus and his first followers was Aramaic. The word which can be translated to mean "evil" in Aramaic can also be interpreted as "unripe." Likewise, "good" can mean "ripe." To me, this points toward a less cut-and-dry, good-and-evil interpretation of this verse.
If Jesus ACTUALLY said :
"an unripe man brings forth unripe things from his storehouse, which is in his heart, and says unripe things."
or from the parallel passage in the bible:
"an unripe tree bears unripe fruit."
What is being said here to me is that those who follow someone that has not yet achieved union with God will not be able to achieve that union themselves (thus "Ye shall know them by their fruit"--if the students are God-Realized, you can assume the teacher is).
This passage is a warning from the Christ to be discriminating in who we place our spiritual trust. It is a command to look at those who might preach in His name... Look at those who have already pledged themselves to this teacher... Do they seem peaceful, loving, more in touch with the Will of The Father? If they do, then this teacher may be one worth following. If they don't, one might consider moving on to another "guru."
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Re: Text for August 24th & 25th
Tue, August 30, 2005 - 4:31 AMI really like the last line of this verse -- how the heart itself can be full of illusion, utterly covered over by all the usual suspects, the illusions of egoism, pride, fear, jealousy, etc. that even from the abundance of the human heart, a human being can (and, alas, will) bring negativity into the world.
what I learned in India, particularly, was that Jesus was a master who was especially expert in washing out that stuff, those blocks of illusion, from the heart/soul.
now that I'm thinking about it, too, the idea that the heart is the storehouse for whatever fruit human beings are harvesting, is resonant with the heart being a place where karmas are stored. (for aren't the fruits of our actions, thoughts, etc., karmas?)
Alx