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I once heard a debate of sorts between a Christian and a Buddhist. They were discussing the nature of the Ultimate, beginning at what seemed to be a classic empasse: The Christian spoke of the Ultimate as a personal God, and the a-theistic Buddhist spoke of the Ultimate as the impersonal principle of Being that gives rise to all things, yet is not contained by all things.
In their dialog, the Christian typically asserted that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving.
The Buddhist countered that if this is so, then God would be impossible for a human being to understand, that God must also be all-mysterious. The Christian agreed, yet held that while God could not be understood, God could still be experienced as the great mystery of life itself.
The Buddhist smiled, apparently thinking that he now had the upper hand in the debate. He asked the Christian how, if God is all-mysterious, one could rightly refer to God as "personal"?
The Christian said he had two responses: First, he clarified that when the most informed theologians speak of God as a person, or a trinity of three persons, they know they are speaking in a metaphor that only addresses ways that God can be experienced by human beings. Second, he said that since we are persons, it only makes sense that one of the most powerful and meaningful ways of experiencing God is as a person too. So, while speaking of God as a person may be understood to be nothing but a metaphor, speaking of one's experience with God as a personal relationship is entirely fitting.
Well, the Buddhist furrowed his brow for a moment, looking like a chess player trying to salvage his gambit from an unexpected move. Suddenly he looked up with an idea. He said that if experiencing God as a person is only a way of experiencing the Ultimate, then wouldn't a purer, simpler way to experience the Ultimate be as the impersonal principle of Being?
The Christian asked if the Buddhist was one who thinks of the Ultimate as beyond all oppositions and thus Non-Dual. The Buddhist said that he did.
Then the Christian said that if we are going to regard the Ultimate as Non-Dual, then it is just as inaccurate to speak of It as impersonal as to speak of It as personal. He said that personal and impersonal fall into the categories of either/or, neither/nor as well as both/and when speaking of the Ultimate, or God, and that what makes the difference is simply the kinds of experience that one is open to.
The Buddhist was nodding with a blank face for moment, and then he laughed. He said that now he could finally understand Christianity, but he wondered how many Christians do. The Christian asked how many Buddhists really understand Buddhism, and they both laughed together.
Peace,
Griffin
In their dialog, the Christian typically asserted that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving.
The Buddhist countered that if this is so, then God would be impossible for a human being to understand, that God must also be all-mysterious. The Christian agreed, yet held that while God could not be understood, God could still be experienced as the great mystery of life itself.
The Buddhist smiled, apparently thinking that he now had the upper hand in the debate. He asked the Christian how, if God is all-mysterious, one could rightly refer to God as "personal"?
The Christian said he had two responses: First, he clarified that when the most informed theologians speak of God as a person, or a trinity of three persons, they know they are speaking in a metaphor that only addresses ways that God can be experienced by human beings. Second, he said that since we are persons, it only makes sense that one of the most powerful and meaningful ways of experiencing God is as a person too. So, while speaking of God as a person may be understood to be nothing but a metaphor, speaking of one's experience with God as a personal relationship is entirely fitting.
Well, the Buddhist furrowed his brow for a moment, looking like a chess player trying to salvage his gambit from an unexpected move. Suddenly he looked up with an idea. He said that if experiencing God as a person is only a way of experiencing the Ultimate, then wouldn't a purer, simpler way to experience the Ultimate be as the impersonal principle of Being?
The Christian asked if the Buddhist was one who thinks of the Ultimate as beyond all oppositions and thus Non-Dual. The Buddhist said that he did.
Then the Christian said that if we are going to regard the Ultimate as Non-Dual, then it is just as inaccurate to speak of It as impersonal as to speak of It as personal. He said that personal and impersonal fall into the categories of either/or, neither/nor as well as both/and when speaking of the Ultimate, or God, and that what makes the difference is simply the kinds of experience that one is open to.
The Buddhist was nodding with a blank face for moment, and then he laughed. He said that now he could finally understand Christianity, but he wondered how many Christians do. The Christian asked how many Buddhists really understand Buddhism, and they both laughed together.
Peace,
Griffin
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Thu, August 18, 2005 - 7:29 PMThis is a classic question. While all men want to reach the point where they realize that everything is one, few ever do. Each of us, in our limited understanding, lean one way or the other. Personally, I am better able to understand the impersonal aspects of God. It is my hope that through prayer and meditation I can gain a feeling of closeness with God that might be called personal. -
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Unsu...
Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 6:54 AM4W,
Regarding experience of the personal aspects of God, here's a mindfulness exercise that you and anyone else might like to practice: Remind yourself that the essence of every human being is a spark of the Divine, so that when you are interacting with another human being, it is one piece of God interacting with another piece of God, albeit "as through a glass darkly". If you do this, commit to practice it daily for at least a month, reflecting on your experiences in your sitting meditations.
Lectio divina is also a good practice for anyone interested in experiencing the personal dimensions of God.
Peace,
Griffin -
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 8:16 AMBOTH/AND is definately the road to reconciliation.
As the saying goes they are two sides of the same coin.
But as you both implied, the problem is seeing both sides of the coin at the same time. This is the difficult part. Thanks for the mindfulness exercise. I will surely practice it.
In your opinions, is Gnosis the hidden path to an enlarged perspective of both sides of our metaphorical coin?
Much Love,
Jason -
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Unsu...
Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 12:42 PMHi Jason,
Good question. Gnosis can be thought of as a momentary experience, as a path of study and practice, or as an ongoing state of mind. You specifically referred to it as a path, so let's work with that for a minute. :-)
I would say that the Gnostic path does beg us to try to see both sides of the metaphorical/metaphysical coin at once. Gnosticism sometimes gets a bad rap for being dualistic and setting the physical against the spiritual. The traditional literature does indeed contain such language, but it must also be understood that the literature of Gnosticism is meant to be mythical, and thus have some literal value while having yet more to reveal in layers that transcend and subsume the literal.
So, as with the different stages or phases of realization discussed in Buddhism and Vedanta, it can be argued that there are different levels or degrees of gnosis. Some of these are purely conceptual and do not require any genuine mystical experience in order for people to "get it". The highest layer of conceptual understanding is the metaphysic of non-dualism, which many people can accept as making sense to them on a purely intellectual level.
Once non-dualism is embraced, then a person is inwardly challenged to integrate it into his/her life. That means becoming aware of how one plays the games of limitation (definition), opposition, polarity and division. As a non-dualist, how can one rationally acknowledge some condition as essential to life without simultaneously acknowledging its opposite as equally essential?
Furthermore since conceptualization requires defining things in dualistic terms, an even deeper challenge to integrating non-dualism is working with the realization that we cannot conceptualize the Ultimate Truth that we call the One, or God, or the Non-Dual. We can only come up with words and other symbols that point our minds in that direction.
Still, gnosis is about actual "knowing", not just having a faith or a philosophy. But it can be hard for us to understand what "knowing" means if it doesn't mean conceptual understanding or at least an powerful emotional conviction. We forget about the experiential and intutive (actually a form of experience itself) aspects of knowing. But that's pretty foolish, because you can ask any super-genius egghead if he knows that he loves his wife and he will insist that he does, but damned if he can really explain exactly what love is! <LOL> His knowledge of that love really boils down to his experience of it manifesting in different ways (thoughts, feelings, and actions), but if he's honest he also knows that the love itself cannot be reduced to a conceptual sum of the ways it is experienced.
So, gnosticism urges us to get back to the root of knowing -- actual experience. That is why gnostics focus on experience of mystical states of consciousness (loving God with all your heart and mind...). But the non-dual metaphysic also urges us to realize that every experience is an experience of some aspect of the Ultimate. In turn, that means to embrace one side of anything while denying the other is to try to deny God's fullness, reject some aspect of Reality, close ourselves off from part of a more complete gnosis, and thus create delusions, conflicts and disease for ourselves.
Gnosis, in its sharpest form, is indeed the middle or hidden path that you spoke of.
Peace,
Griffin -
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 1:44 PMAwesome post!!!!!!!!
"Furthermore since conceptualization requires defining things in dualistic terms, an even deeper challenge to integrating non-dualism is working with the realization that we cannot conceptualize the Ultimate Truth that we call the One, or God, or the Non-Dual. We can only come up with words and other symbols that point our minds in that direction. "
This both frustrates and inspires me.
I've had the good fortune to come through what many people call "mystical experiences" in my sacramental use of vision enducing plants (for a defensive reason I feel I need to say that there are many paths to knowledge; this is one of my paths). When the experience is passed and I am left standing in the wake of these profound realizations I scramble to try and write these realizations down. As soon as my pen hits the paper, I find there are no words that I could write to capture this experience. This is frustrating, for I feel If I could "talk" this experience to other people then we would all ascend into the Kingdom of God together. I've tried this and all people do is look at me like I've "ascended to psychosis". But if they only KNEW.
It seems Poetry, Art, Music, Extended Metaphor, Prayer, Dance, and Simile are the only tools we have to express this Knowledge in a somewhat comprehensible way. You seem to have a knack for extended metaphor in your blog. Thanks a lot for the great post!!!
Much Love,
Jason
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Unsu...
Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Fri, August 19, 2005 - 3:21 PM"You seem to have a knack for extended metaphor in your blog. "
Ha ha ha! :-D All of existence is an extended metaphor!!!
Peace,
Griffin
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Sat, August 20, 2005 - 1:19 AMthe thing that strikes me the funniest (and there are many aspects in it that do) in this whole discussion is the contention that the impersonal is somehow easier to fathom than the personal. as if the personal isn't all that mysterious, somehow.
when I think about, for example, human relationships -- as 'personal', ie, in person, personified, as it gets in a lifetime -- they're UTTERLY mysterious. I mean, even with a mate of decades, a family member, whoever is really close and dear to us -- do we really ever fathom the depths of another human being? or, for that matter, ourselves?
thanks for the chuckles, Griffin.
Alx -
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 10:15 AMThis has been a fascinating discussion to read, thanks everyone!
I know that there are many Buddhist schools that utilize dieties, such as the Tantras and Vajrayana, which seem to formulate "persons" of God, unlike some of the other schools that seem to deny any sense of "personhood" to God. But I wonder if this stance is a denial of the personal or the re-contextualizing of it, really. Most Buddhist teachings seem to me, not to so much deny a "personhood" of God so much as make no comment on the matter whatsoever and refer back to what Alx mentioned, "Know Yourself." Perhaps this stance exists because the position of many Buddhists is similar to the Gnostics, How can a person know God without knowing oneself, for without such knowledge, how do we know we know God and not a projection of our own ego?
I believe this is also the distinction that Gnostics make when referring to Demiurge. What we think, believe and expect God to be may not be God at all, but our projections of what is unknowable. Certainly, experience generates a "personal" experience, but even in the experience is there a self that is experiencing? Isn't the nature of the profundity of the experience that "person" is gone, and yet, experience is happening? So is it personal or non-personal??? This discussion of "personal/non-personal" God is fascinating in this context, for when we look into ourselves for ourself, we see that we can't find ourselves, yet we go about our day and there we are, a self arises. So too, this might be true for God.
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 6:34 PMGreat observations Phillip! As a buddhist, I would agree that I think they take a very Gnostic approach to diety. Truely, diety exists within and without ourselves and it is this realization that buddhist meditation helps a person experience.
What is the hardest thing for people to understand is that duelism is necessary to be able to experience diety while in this form. We are divine, but we are also human and there is a split vision that happens as we become more realized. We are able to see both the divine self in action around us and in us, while also seeing our human self. The limitations of our physical form cause interesting realizations and I agree about your statement of the demiurge being an expected buy perhaps untrue realization of God.
This has been a very interesting thread,
Dian -
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Re: Personal God or Impersonal Principle of Being?
Tue, April 18, 2006 - 9:01 AMTwo concepts that surround this idea in Gnosticism are Pleuroma and Entirety.
Pleuroma is considered to be the realm of unity, that which is transcendent of creation and that aspect of being that is utterly unified with God. Entirety is the world we know of, and many of the inner dimensions, including the "Heavens of Chaos" which are the Heavens that could be thought of as those "Gated Communities of the sky" which, as Jesus says, "The HEAVENS and the earth will pass away, but my word will remain."
But another Gnostic friend of mine recently helped me recognize the idea of the Pleuroma WITHIN the Entirety. Basically, we ARE the Pleuroma, but in our self-identity with name and form and our belief in it's substantial self-existence, we ARE the Entirety. They are one reality, but manifest according to view.
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